Discover more in these hand-picked books Tell me what you think;  read what others say.  
Stuff you need to know before the POCM makes sense. Ideas, rituals and myths Christianity boosted from the Pagans. Some of the Pagan's dying-resurrected godmen The Triumph of Christianity Discover mainstream scholarship about Christianity's Pagan origins What did the Christians borrow? So what?
the ideas, myths and rituals christianity borrowed from the pagans Jesus saves -- Pagan Gods saved first gods whose dad was a god and whose mom was a mortal woman Christianity has baptism -- Paganism had it first Christians share a sacred meal with their God -- Pagans did it first Christians believe in eternal life -- but Paganism believed in it first
Jesus did miracles -- Pagan Gods did them first Jesus fulfilled prophecy -- Pagan Gods fulfilled prophecy first God and the immortal soul -- Paganism had 'em first Christianity thinks it has monotheism -- Paganism had it first Jesus' God lives in Heaven on High -- Pagan Gods lived there first pagan dead went to the underworld Jesus made clever quips -- Pagan cynic philosophers made them first
Jesus fulfilled prophecy -- Pagan Gods fulfilled prophecy first

Liver model, used by priests to predict the future.
Assyria,
18th century BC

Now in the British Museum

"What could be called more divine than the power of foreknowing and foretelling the future?"
[Celsus, quoted by Origen, Against Celsus, 4.96]

Was Christianity new?  Was Christianity unique? 
Lets talk about prophecy.

Pagan prophets predicted the future -- correctly. You know this if you've heard of the famous oracle at Delphi. You probably also know that our word "auspicious" comes from "auspices", the Roman religious ritual where priests told the future by reading the livers of sacrificed animals. (Sheesh. Have you noticed how often other peoples' beliefs are crazy stupid?)

Another SPFYMLM Why so many Pagan prophecy-miracles? Pagan faith was stronger than ours.
Like the Pagans we see prophesy as supernatural. The difference is, we see the supernatural as rare; the Pagans? everywhere they looked they saw the supernatural.
Pagan supernatural powers guided everything, all the time. Our God cares, maybe, but He's got physics to move the sun. Pagan Gods moved the sun across the sky, physically moved it every day. Pagan faith saw the supernatural in the moving sun; in where lightning hit, and when; in the paths birds flew; in doors banging, lights shining and chariots running in the clouds.

By the way Fate

Ancient civilization also had the notion of Fate: some stuff was gonna happen and there wasn't squat you could about it.

Gods sometimes knew what was fated to happen. They'd pass what they knew along to their prophets, the prophets would pass it along to you.

Even the Gods were subject to fate sometimes. And there were different kinds of fate. It's a big subject.

 

What was going to happen next was nothing more that what the Pagan Gods planned to do next, so of course the Pagan Gods and their prophets knew the future.

One good thing about Pagan Gods was they didn't mind letting on what they knew about the future. So, like Pagan miracles generally, Pagan prophecy-miracles number in the tens of thousands. You run out of patience before you run out of prophecy miracles. So here at POCM, I've included enough to give you a sense of how central prophecy was to Paganism. Need more? Just pick up Herodotus, Livy, Josephus, or any other ancient historian. They're chock-a-block with prophecy-miracles. Guaranteed.

 

So strong was the Pagans' faith, they institutionalized prophecy-miracles with professional prophesy-readers -- guys with training and text-books, guys you'd consult like you consult a doctor. Ask a question, the prophecy-guy would find it on his list, apply his divine-seer skills, and foretell your future for you. Very comforting.

How do we know this? We have the prophecy books they used. > >

Professor Lee describes:
"[I]n addition to a numbered list of nearly one hundred questions, the oracular expert would have had at his disposal a set of numbered answers and a mathematical formula for selecting, in an apparently baffling and mysterious manner, an appropriate answer." [Lee, A.D. Pagans & Christians in Late Antiquity (2000), section 1.10, pages 28]

 

Questions to an oracle:
"72 Shall I receive the wages?
73 Am I to remain where I am going?
74 Am I to be sold?
75 Am I to receive help from my friend?
76 Has it been granted to me to make a contract with another?
77 Am I to be restored to my position
78 Am I to receive leave?
79 Shall I receive the money?
80 Is the one who is abroad alive?
81 Am I to profit from the business transaction?
….
90 Am I to be divorced from my wife?
91 Have I been poisoned?"
[ Papyrus Oxyrhynchus, # 1477 -- which you can find in: Lee, A.D. Pagans & Christians in Late Antiquity (2000), section 1.10, pages 28 - 30]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.
Christian prophets foretold the future. Pagan prophecy readers foretold the future first.
The
Christian Sybil
You knew there was a Christian Sybil, right?

Sibyls = prophetesseseszz One good thing about Pagan Gods was they didn't mind letting on what they knew about the future. You could get a forecast by consulting a Sibyl. (Why "Sibyls"? Because it was easier than "prophetesseseszz." The ancients didn't have spill chuckers.)

Here's the second century Christian writer Justin Martyr describing a Pagan Sybil at work >>

A Sybil was a woman, a prophetess who spoke God's words for Him. There were lots of Sibyls in lots of places. A God would move the Sibyl to speak, someone would quick write down what she said and later on folks would consult her words (in Rome they kept them in them the "Sybilline Books" -- you'll someday run across that term in the ancient texts) for help foretelling the future.

[T]he ancient Sibyl, who by some kind of potent inspiration teaches you, through her oracular predictions, truths which seem to be much akin to the teaching of the prophets. She ... uttered her oracular sayings in a city called Cumae ... And they who had heard it from their fathers as part of their country's tradition, told us that it was here she used to publish her oracles. ... [T]hey said that she washed, and having put on her robe again, retires into the inmost chamber of the basilica, which is still a part of the one stone; and sitting in the middle of the chamber on a high rostrum and throne, thus proclaims her oracles.

Many writers, including Plato said Justin Martyr, agreed that such prophecies were divinely inspired >>

 

...and that their prophecies were fulfilled >>

 

 

...because the prophetesseseszz
got their divine power from God >>

 

And both by many other writers has the Sibyl been mentioned as a prophetess, and also by Plato in his Phaedrus. And Plato seems to me to have counted prophets divinely inspired when He read her prophecies. For He saw that what she had long ago predicted was accomplished; and on this account He expresses in the Dialogue with Meno his wonder at and admiration of prophets in the following terms: "Those whom we now call prophetic persons we should rightly name divine. And not least would we say that they are divine, and are raised to the prophetic ecstasy by the inspiration and possession of God, when they correctly speak of many and important matters, and yet know nothing of what they are saying,"--plainly and manifestly referring to the prophecies of the Sibyl.
[Justin Martyr, Hortatory Address to the Greeks, 37, 2d century AD]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

Christian prophets foretold the future. Pagan prophecy readers and Sybils foretold the future first.  

You'd figure the place a Sibyl worked would be a Sibylarium, but it wasn't. It was an oracle. The predictions she gave were also oracles. Sometimes the Sybil was called an oracle. It was fun to say "oracle," so they used it whenever they could. Try it yourself: Oracle, oracle, oracle. See?

Pagans had lots of oracles,
and the oracles prophesied correctly >>

Celsus goes on to say of us: "They [Christians] set no value on the oracles of the Pythian priestess, of the priests of Dodona, of Clarus, of Branchidae, of Jupiter Ammon, and of a multitude of others; although under their guidance we may say that colonies were sent forth, and the whole world peopled.
[Origen, Against Celsus, 7.4]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

Christian prophets foretold the future. Pagan prophecy readers and Sybils and the Pythian priestess and the priests of Dodona and Clarus and Branchidae and Jupiter Amon and a multitude of others foretold the future first.  
Some guys who foretold the future  

Pythagoras
Chances are you think of Pythagoras as the s.o.b. who invented that geometry thingy. Pythagoras was also a guru who founded a philosophy-religion, gathered disciples, performed miracles and made prophecies.

Pythagoras had the power of God in him. How do we know this? His prophecies always came true, that's how. >>

The Pythagoreans are said to have predicted many things, and Pythagoras' predictions always came true.
[The Life of Pythagoras, 8 (Preserved by Photius, c 820 - 891 AD), -- which you can find in: Gutherie, Kenneth. The Pythagorean Sourcebook and Library (1988), pg. 138]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

'Cause I'm sure you're dying to know, here's the Pythagorean's theology about how prophecy worked >>

The Pythagoreans also assert that the whole air is full of souls, and that these are those that are accounted daimons or heroes. They are the ones that send down among men dreams, and tokens of disease and health; the latter not being reserved to human beings, but being sent also to sheep and cattle as well. They are concerned with purifications, expiations, and all kinds of divinations, oracular predictions, and the like.
[Diogenes Laertius, The Life of Pythagoras, 19 (Guthrie's divisions) (3d century AD), -- which you can find in: Gutherie, Kenneth. The Pythagorean Sourcebook and Library (1988), pg. 149]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

 
Christian prophets foretold the future. Pagan prophecy readers and Sibyls and the Pythian priestess and the priests of Dodona and Clarus and Branchidae and Jupiter Amon and a multitude of others and Pythagoras and his disciples foretold the future first.

Apollonius of Tyana
was a religious teacher who lived in the first century AD, traveled widely teaching goodness, performed miracles (raising the dead was one), and gathered disciples. After he died he was worshiped as a God.

Apollonius had the power of prophecy >>
(as did Socrates and Anaxagoras)

For the circumstance that Apollonius foresaw and foreknew so many things does not in the least justify us in imputing to him this kind of wisdom [black magic]; we might as well accuse Socrates of the same, because, thanks to his familiar spirit, he knew things beforehand, and we might also accuse Anaxagoras because of the many things he foretold.
[Philostratus, The Life of Apollonius of Tyana, 1.2 (217 AD), -- which you can find in: Conybeare, F. C.. Philostratus I: The Life of Apollonius of Tyana, Books I - V (Loeb Classical Library #16) (2000), pg. 7 - 9]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

Christian prophets foretold the future. Pagan prophecy readers and Sybils and the Pythian priestess and the priests of Dodona and Clarus and Branchidae and Jupiter Amon and a multitude of others and Pythagoras and his disciples and the godman Apollonius of Tyana and Socrates and Anaxagoras foretold the future first.

Are you seeing the pattern here?

They saw that what both the fearful and the hopeful needed and wanted the most was knowledge of the future, that this was the reason Delphi and Delos and Carus and Didyma had ages ago become rich and famous; men ... were forever coming to these shrines and asking to know the future, and, in payment, the sacrificed whole hecatombs and donated ingots of gold. After turning this discovery over in their minds and pondering it, the partners laid plans to set up an oracle, a seat of prophecy.
[Lucian, Alexander the False Prophet, 8 (2d Century AD), -- which you can find in: Casson, Lionel. Selected Satires of Lucian (1962), pg. 272]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

Amphilochus, you see, after his father Amphiaraus' death and disappearance in Thebes, had been banished from his home town; he make his way to Cilicia and there came out of it all very nicely by going into oracle making himself, and foretelling the future for the Cilicians at a charge of 75 cents per prediction.

[Lucian, Alexander the False Prophet, 8 (2d Century AD), -- which you can find in: Casson, Lionel. Selected Satires of Lucian (1962), pg. 278]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

 

"Amphiaraus had been a seer during his lifetime. After a mysterious death (Zeus clove the ground in front of his chariot and he was swallowed up), he continued prophesying from a famous shrine in central Greece. The son's oracle was located in the town of Mallus."]
[Casson, Lionel. Selected Satires of Lucian (1962), pg. 299]

Pretty soon Alexander was even sending agents into neighboring lands to spread the word about his oracle among various people. These men advertised that he offered general prophecy, recovery of runaway slaves, detection of thieves and bandits, discovery of buried treasure, healing of the sick, and, on occasion, raising of the dead. The result was a stampede from all sides plus sacrifices and offerings.
[Lucian, Alexander the False Prophet, 8 (2d Century AD), -- which you can find in: Casson, Lionel. Selected Satires of Lucian (1962), pg. 23]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

Christian prophets foretold the future. Pagan prophecy readers and Sybils and the Pythian priestess and the priests of Dodona and Clarus and Branchidae and Jupiter Amon and a multitude of others and Pythagoras and his disciples and the godman Apollonius of Tyana and Socrates and Anaxagoras and the priests at Delos and Dymma, and Amphilochus and Amphiarus and Glycon's prophet Alexander foretold the future first.

 

Be not, O Greeks, so very hostilely disposed towards the Barbarians, nor look with ill will on their opinions. For which of your institutions has not been derived from the Barbarians? The most eminent of the Telmessians invented the art of divining by dreams; the Carians, that of prognosticating by the stars; the Phrygians and the most ancient Isaurians, augury by the flight of birds; the Cyprians, the art of inspecting victims.
[Tatian, Address to the Greeks, 1 (2d century AD)]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

Christian prophets foretold the future. Pagan prophecy readers and Sybils and the Pythian priestess and the priests of Dodona and Clarus and Branchidae and Jupiter Amon and a multitude of others and Pythagoras and his disciples and the godman Apollonius of Tyana and Socrates and Anaxagoras and the priests at Delos and Dymma, and Amphilochus and Amphiarus and Glycon's prophet Alexander and the nation of the Greeks, and the nation of the Telmessians, and the nation of the Carians and the nation fo the Phyrgians, and the nation of the Isaurians and the nation of the Cyprians foretold the future first.

Are you seeing the pattern here? Prophecies made and prophecies fulfilled were basic to Paganism.

I promised we'd run out of patience before we ran out of prophecies. And so we have.

 

Augery Liver-reading
Oh yeah, the Pagan priests could also foretell the future by reading the livers of animals sacrificed to the Gods.

Pagan priests learned how to read livers by consulting model livers like this one >>

The famous Bronze Liver of Piacenza, Italy was used by Etruscan priests to predict the future.
Romans called liver-reading the Etruscan Discipline (disciplina etrusca)
Rediscovered in 1877

Jews too
Judasim

"the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their [the Jews] future desolation."[Josephus, Jewish War, ,6.5.288] He goes on:

"Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year." [6.5.289]

And in the Temple, "at the ninth hour of the night of the night a great light shone round the altar....This light seemed to be a good sign to the naive, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes as to portend the events that followed." [6.5.291- 293]

And, "also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple." [6.5.292]

"Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner temple. ..was seen to be opened of its own accord. This also the vulgar thought a happy prodigy...but the men of learning understood it."[6.5.293 - 295]

And, "...chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds. [6.5.298 - 299]

And "Jesus, son of Ananus...came to that feast whereon.. everyone makes tabernacles to God in the temple...and began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house." [6.5.300- 301]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

Origen acknowledges pagan prophesies

In the next place, miracles were performed in all countries, or at least in many of them, as Celsus himself admits, instancing the case of AEsculapius, who conferred benefits on many, and who foretold future events to entire cities, which were dedicated to him, such as Tricca, and Epidaurus, and Cos, and Pergamus...
[Origen, Against Celsus, 3.3]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

Celsus mentions a multitude of Pagan oracles

Celsus goes on to say of us: "They [Christians] set no value on the oracles of the Pythian priestess, of the priests of Dodona, of Clarus, of Branchidae, of Jupiter Ammon, and of a multitude of others; although under their guidance we may say that colonies were sent forth, and the whole world peopled.
[Origen, Against Celsus, 7.4]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

Origen admits the oracles are real, but says: demons!

[the Christian father Origen replies]
But let it be granted that the responses delivered by the Pythian and other oracles were not the utterances of false men who pretended to a divine inspiration; and let us see if, after all, we cannot convince any sincere inquirers that there is no necessity to attribute these oracular responses to any divinities, but that, on the other hand, they may be traced to wicked demons...
[Origen, Against Celsus, 7.4]

Maxentius told: this day an enemy of Rome will perish77

44.7 Discord arose in the city and the emperor [Maxentius] was upbraided for abdicating responsibility….. 44.8 Disconcerted by this cry, he curried away and, summoning some senators, he ordered the Sibylline books to be consulted. In them was found the statement that on that day the enemy of Rome would perish.
[Lactantius, On the Death of the Persecutors, 44.7-8 (early fourth century), which you can find in: Lee, A.D.. Pagans & Christians in Late Antiquity (2000), pg. 82]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

Christianity borrowed the Pagan notion of Sybelline Oracles

In pagan times the oracles and predictions ascribed to the sibyls were carefully collected and jealously guarded in the temple of Jupiter Capitolinus, and were consulted only in times of grave crises. Because of the vogue enjoyed by these heathen oracles and because of the influence they had in shaping the religious views of the period, the Hellenistic Jews in Alexandria, during the second century B.C. composed verses in the same form, attributing them to the sibyls, and circulated them among the pagans as a means of diffusing Judaistic doctrines and teaching. This custom was continued down into Christian times, and was borrowed by some Christians so that in the second or third century, a new class of oracles emanating from Christian sources came into being. Hence the Sibylline Oracles can be classed as Pagan, Jewish, or Christian.
[Catholic Encyclopedia (1912), Sybelline Oracles]

POCM quotes modern scholars

 

   

Livy describes the

 

Sibylline Oracles is the name given to certain collections of supposed prophecies, emanating from the sibyls or divinely inspired seeresses, which were widely circulated in antiquity

In pagan times the oracles and predictions ascribed to the sibyls were carefully collected and jealously guarded in the temple of Jupiter Capitolinus, and were consulted only in times of grave crises.

[29.10]… Hannibal [general of the invading army] had gone into winter quarters [in Italy]
Owing to the unusual number of showers of stones which had fallen during the year, an inspection had been made of the Sibylline Books, and some oracular verses had been discovered which announced that whenever a foreign foe should carry war into Italy he could be driven out and conquered if the Mater Idaea were brought from Pessinus to Rome. The ... deputation who had taken the gift to Delphi reported on their return that when they sacrificed to the Pythian Apollo the indications presented by the victims were entirely favorable, and further, that the response of the oracle was to the effect that a far grander victory was awaiting Rome than the one from whose spoils they had brought the gift to Delphi...

[29.11] ... Accordingly, they decided to send a mission to him [ king Atalus, who controlled the Great Mother goddess (a meteor?)]......He then handed over to them the sacred stone which the natives declared to be "the Mother of the Gods," and bade them carry it to Rome. . .

[29.14]... Two suns were said to have been seen; there were intervals of daylight during the night; a meteor was seen to shoot from east to west; a gate at Tarracina and at Anagnia a gate and several portions of the wall were struck by lightning; in the temple of Juno Sospita at Lanuvium a crash followed by a dreadful roar was heard. To expiate these portents special intercessions were offered for a whole day, and in consequence of a shower of stones a nine days' solemnity of prayer and sacrifice was observed.
 

P. Scipio was ordered to go to Ostia [Rome's port], accompanied by all the matrons, to meet the goddess... The matrons, each taking their turn in bearing the sacred image, carried the goddess into the temple of Victory on the Palatine.

[Livy, History of Rome, 29.10 & 14 (1st century AD)]

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

 

   
 

94. Since we are upon this subject, it may not be improper to give an account of the omens, before and at his birth, as well as afterwards, which gave hopes of his future greatness, and the good fortune that constantly attended him. A part of the wall of Velletri having in former times been struck with thunder, the response of the soothsayers was, that a native of that town would some time or other arrive at supreme power; relying on which prediction, the Velletrians both then, and several times afterwards, made war upon the Roman people, to their own ruin. At last it appeared by the event, that the omen had portended the elevation of Augustus.

  Julius Marathus informs us, that a few months before his birth, there happened at Rome a prodigy, by which was signified that Nature was in travail with a king for the Roman people; and that the senate, in alarm, came to the resolution that no child born that year should be brought up; but that those amongst them, whose wives were pregnant, to secure to themselves a chance of that dignity, took care that the decree of the senate should not be registered in the treasury.
  Upon the day he was born, the senate being engaged in a debate on Catiline's conspiracy, and Octavius, in consequence of his wife's being in childbirth, coming late into the house, it is a well-known fact, that Publius Nigidius, upon hearing the occasion of his coming so late, and the hour of his wife's delivery, declared that the world had got a master. Afterwards, when Octavius, upon marching with his army through the deserts of Thrace, consulted the oracle in the grove of father Bacchus, with barbarous rites, concerning his son, he received from the priests an answer to the same purpose; because, when they poured wine upon the altar, there burst out so prodigious a flame, that it ascended above the roof of the temple, and reached up to the heavens; a circumstance which had never happened to any one but Alexander the Great, upon his sacrificing at the same altars. And the next night he dreamt that he saw his son under more than human appearance, with thunder and a sceptre, and the other insignia of Jupiter Optimus Maximus, having on his head a radiant crown, mounted upon a chariot decked with laurel, and drawn by six pair of milk-white horses.
  Whilst he was yet an infant, as Gaius Drusus relates, being laid in his cradle by his nurse, and in a low place, the next day he was not to be found, and after he had been sought for a long time, he was at last discovered upon a lofty tower, lying with his face towards the rising sun. When he first began to speak, he ordered the frogs that happened to make a troublesome noise, upon an estate belonging to the family near the town, to be silent; and there goes a report that frogs never croaked there since that time. As he was dining in a grove at the fourth mile-stone on the Campanian road, an eagle suddenly snatched a piece of bread out of his hand, and, soaring to a prodigious height, after hovering, came down most unexpectedly, and returned it to him.
  Quintus Catulus had a dream, for two nights successively after his dedication of the Capitol. The first night he dreamt that Jupiter, out of several boys of the order of the nobility, who were playing about his altar, selected one, into whose bosom he put the public seal of the commonwealth, which he held in his hand; but in his vision the next night, he saw in the bosom of Jupiter Capitolinus, the same boy; whom he ordered to be removed, but it was forbidden by the God, who declared that it must be brought up to become the guardian of the state. The next day, meeting Augustus, with whom till that hour he had not the least acquaintance, and looking at him with admiration, he said he was extremely like the boy he had seen in his dream. Some give a different account of Catulus's first dream, namely, that Jupiter, upon several noble lads requesting of him that they might have a guardian, had pointed to one amongst them, to whom they were to prefer their requests; and putting his fingers to the boy's mouth to kiss, he afterwards applied them to his own.
  Marcus Cicero, as he was attending Gaius Caesar to the Capitol, happened to be telling some of his friends a dream which he had the preceding night, in which he saw a comely youth, let down from heaven by a golden chain, who stood at the door of the Capitol, and had a whip put into his hands by Jupiter. And immediately upon sight of Augustus, who had been sent for by his uncle Caesar to the sacrifice, and was as yet perfectly unknown to most of the company, he affirmed that it was the very boy he had seen in his dream. When he assumed the manly toga, his senatorian tunic becoming loose in the seam on each side, fell at his feet. Some would have this to forbode, that the order, of which that was the badge of distinction, would some time or other be subject to him.
  Julius Caesar, in cutting down a wood to make room for his camp near Munda, happened to light upon a palm-tree, and ordered it to be preserved as an omen of victory. From the root of this tree there put out immediately a sucker, which, in a few days, grew to such a height as not only to equal, but overshadow it, and afford room for many nests of wild pigeons which built in it, though that species of bird particularly avoids a hard and rough leaf. It is likewise reported, that Caesar was chiefly influenced by this prodigy, to prefer his sister's grandson before all others for his successor.
  In his retirement at Apollonia, he went with his friend Agrippa to visit Theogenes, the astrologer, in his gallery on the roof. Agrippa, who first consulted the fates, having great and almost incredible fortunes predicted of him, Augustus did not choose to make known his nativity, and persisted for some time in the refusal, from a mixture of shame and fear, lest his fortunes should be predicted as inferior to those of Agrippa. Being persuaded, however, after much importunity, to declare it, Theogenes started up from his seat, and paid him adoration. Not long afterwards, Augustus was so confident of the greatness of his destiny, that he published his horoscope, and struck a silver coin, bearing upon it the sign of Capricorn, under the influence of which he was born.
  [Suetonius, The Divine Augustus, 94]
Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

 

 

 

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