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| Getting Started | |||
| Scholarship
> |
Scholarly Authority | History of the Scholarship | Amateur Scholarship | Yes! |
| Apologists'
defenses > |
Different | Independently | First | Ignore |
| Dying, Rising Gods > | Pro: Frazier | Con: J. Z. Smith | ||
| Mystery Religions > | Pro: Reitzenstein, etc. | Con: AD Nock | Con: BM Metzger | Sourcebooks |
| Summary |
Defense of the Faith #3: Christian and Pagan ideas are similar, but Christian ideas came first—Them varmint Pagans done stole from us! |
| IntroductionBelievers in their own wordsReasons Vagueness as strategy Implications Who was first Do old religions copy from new religions? Similarities at issue |
Big puzzle, small pieces God, soul, sin, heaven, hell, demons, miracles, godmen, sons of God, savior Gods, salvation, eternal life, sacred meals shared with the god, mystery religions with initiations by baptism—all those things are unequivocally older than Christianity by centuries. |
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"Scholarship" reality check
Alright then, what's on this page?
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| IntroductionBelievers in their own wordsReasons Vagueness as strategy Implications Who was first Do old religions copy from new religions? Similarities at issue |
How
the Them Varmint Pagans Done Stole From Us defense got started
Nock's reasoning convinces Christian believers. Why? Because believers already believe—they start with the idea the Christian legends are true; the legends only become not true if you can unequivocally prove that they can not conceivably be true. Second century evidence didn't do that. Fine. We can still be friends. |
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Believers
in their own words What I hope you notice is neither author talks about how his version of the 'Paganism is late' reasoning fits into a larger theory of Christian origins. The don't ask, "Well OK, the dates being uncertain and all, how do I know who borrowed from whom?", or "How come the Pagans, who were busy killing Christians on account of their religion, thought it was a good idea to copy the religion of the people they were killing for their religion?", or any stuff like that. They just toss up the Them varmint Pagans done stole from us theory and quick like a bunny scamper off to other stuff. |
| Believers
in their own words Doctor of Divinity A. D. Nock His criteria make it impossible to discover Christian borrowing from Paganism. |
| Here's
how Doctor of Divinity A. D. Nock puts
it in the believers' canonical "refutation" of Christian- Pagan
syncretism >>
"Much" of what we know about the Pagan mystery religions dates from the third or forth centuries, asserts Dr. Nock expansively, pointing a finger and slurring his speech ever so little, and by then Paganism was "probably" assimilating Christian ideas. Dr. Nock apparently doesn't need much—any—analysis to see Pagan borrowing. Borrowing is conceivable; therefore borrowing is "probable" and "obvious." QED. Who's ready for lunch? |
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But right away Doctor of Divinity Nock lets on that his standard for accepting Christian borrowing is just a teensy bit different. I use "teensy" here in its inter-galactic astronomical sense. For
Christian borrowing we must
And, says Doctor of Divinity Nock, it is impossible to know all those things!! >> So, according to Doctor of Divinity Nock himself, his criteria make it impossible to discover Christian borrowing from Paganism. |
The
greatest caution must therefore
be exercised in determining what was the precise
character of any particular mystery which might be supposed to
have influenced [pg 59] Christianity in the first century ; we
need in effect to know its
character at the point of contact, since it is unsafe to assume
that there would be complete uniformity in any such cult wherever practiced
(we know that later this was certainly not so with Mithraism, which varied
in details from East to West). Further, we require some means of estimating
not merely in what cities a
particular mystery was observed, but what the local
intensity was, whether it was
for instance impossible for any man in those parts to be unaware of its
more characteristic features, or at any rate of its existence.
To all these questions there cannot be complete and satisfactory
answers |
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Doctor of Divinity Nock's analysis uses different criteria to identify Pagan and Christian borrowing. Pagan borrowing that is conceivable is "obvious." Christian borrowing is always—always!—excluded by Doctor of Divinity Nock's analysis.
Doctor of Divinity Nock's analysis fails because it is designed to make Christian borrowing impossible. |
| Remember, I'm not telling you about Doctor of Divinity Nock because I think his analysis is weak. I'm showing you what he wrote because on the subject of Christian borrowing from Paganism, Doctor of Divinity Nock is the most famous, most admired, most cited, most quoted anti-borrowing scholar there is. And this book, Early Gentile Christianity and its Hellenistic Background is the most famous, most admired, most cited, most quoted anti-borrowing book anybody anywhere ever wrote on the subject. |
Believers
in their own words Professor Jonathan Z. Smith When the evidence contradicts his theory, the evidence is wrong. |
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How
to explain this? Professor Smith imagines maybe the Christians alive
back then, you know those Christian people living in a pagan culture,
some of whom had converted to Christianity from Paganism, maybe they didn't
know as much about Adonis-ism as some people today—associate professors
for example. Maybe those Christians back then—all of them—just imagined Adonis rose from the dead.
Or maybe Adonis did rise from the dead—maybe because Them varmint Pagans done stole from us! |
Considerably
later, the Christian writers Origen and Jerome,
commenting on Ezekiel 8:14, and Cyril of Alexandria and
Procopius of Gaza, commenting on Isaiah 18:1, clearly
report joyous festivities on the third day to celebrate Adonis (identified
with Tammuz) having been "raised
from the dead." Whether this represents an interpretatio
Christianis or whether late third- and fourth century forms of the
Adonis cult themselves developed a dying and rising mythology (possibility
in imitation of the Christian myth) cannot be determined. |
The
possibilities, according to Professor Smith's analysis, are that: Which possibility is correct? Professor Smith's analysis doesn't go into that. He doesn't seem to care.
Hey wait ... now that I think about it, is it possible—not certain, not likely, not probable, just possible—is it possible all these multiple accounts from multiple independent sources simply mean what they say, that Adonis did rise from the dead? Sorry. That's the one possibility Professor Smith's analysis doesn't consider. It's as if what he's really after is not what happened, it's as if he's just after a reason not to see Christian borrowing.
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| Remember, I'm not telling you about Dr. Smith because I think his analysis is weak. I'm showing you what he wrote because on the subject of dying and rising gods Dr. Smith is the most famous, most admired, most cited, most quoted anti-dying-and-rising-gods scholar there is. And this encyclopedia article is the most famous, most admired, most cited, most quoted anti-dying and rising god scholarship going. And it ignores exactly the possibility it pretends to analyze! |
| IntroductionBelievers in their own wordsReasons Vagueness tegy Implications Who was first Do old religions copy from new religions? Similarities at issue |
| Reasons |
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Vagueness
as strategy Did you catch that? They didn't give any evidence. They don't have any evidence. TVPDSFU theorists don't have any evidence of Paganism borrowing from Christianity. |
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Remember,
for the overwhelming majority of Christian - Pagan similarities Paganism
undisputedly got there first, generations before Jesus. That means that
for all those theologies and sacraments, Pagan But with only a few specific points at issue, TVPDSFU stays vague. TVPDSFU theorists don't give you specific facts that support any of the few vaguely possible specific borrowings. They don't give you facts showing that Mithras' taurobolium was borrowed from Christian baptism. They don't give you facts showing that Adonis' resurrection was borrowed from Jesus'. TVPDSFU doesn't give specifics. It's proponents, in their strongest writing, just talk about Pagan borrowing in a general way.
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Don't get me wrong. Doctor of Divinity Nock was a plenty smart scholar of ancient religions. His famous book—Conversion— all about how ancient religions, Pagan and Christian, spread, includes plenty about how Pagan religions copied from each other. But, according to Doctor of Divinity Nock, real conversion was possible only to Christianity. Pagan religions weren't high class enough. And in Co version Doctor of Divinity Nock's rules about what evidence indicates borrowing differ from Pagan and Christian. |
This
vagueness helps the TVPDSFU theory several ways
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| IntroductionBelievers in their own wordsReasons Vagueness as strategy Implications Who was first Do old religions copy from new religions? Similarities at issue |
Implications We've just seen it. The big name anti-borrowing scholars bring up Them Varmint Pagans Done Stole From Us, but they never work through the basic implications of the theory. What implications? These here implications: 1. So they were similar? 2. So Christianity did borrow? |
So they were similar? One of believers' other favorite defenses to counter the evidence of Christian borrowing is to say that Christianity was way different from Paganism. Our baptism, that was completely different from their baptism. Our Washed in the Blood of the Lamb is completely different from their Washed (literally, in the sacred rite of the cribolium) in the Blood of the Lamb Flip. In fact, let's talk
about baptism. For t It fit. That's a big deal. To see how close religions must be to each other to borrow core sacraments, try some other swaps. Try fitting the Hindu idea of salvation and redemption by way of gradual perfection of the soul through many reincarnations, try fitting that into Christian theology. You can't do it. It doesn't fit. Christianity and Hinduism are deeply different. Try fitting the Aztec idea of world and tribal salvation by way of cutting up little children and eating their parts into Christian theology. You can't do it. It doesn't fit. Christianity and Quetzalcoatl-ism are deeply different. Back to the Mithraic blood baptism. According to the TVPDSFU theory, Christian salvation and Christian baptism fit right in with whatever ideas about God, sin, soul, prayer, eternal life, redemption, etc., Mithras-ism already had. Mithras-ism and Christianity were similar. Flop.
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That's it. No Pagan ever wrote, "We thieved baptism from those nasty atheist Christians we were burning at the time." No ancient Christian ever wrote, "Them varmint Pagans done stole from us." When believers make the TVPDSFU claim, all Doctor of Divinity Nock's careful analysis, all his stuff about being sure the ideas have precisely similar characters, and at exactly the right time and in exactly the right city and with exactly the right intensity, all that stuff doesn't apply here. The way the TVPDSFU theory works is, the mere fact that Christian baptism dates before the first mention of the Mithraic taurobolium blood baptism means that the taurobolium was borrowed from Christianity . They're similar (using the new standard), the second one copied. OK, fine. Now let's apply that they're similar, the second one copied reasoning to other elements of ancient religions. Paganism and Christianity both had: godmen, Sons of God, miracles, prayer, salvation, rising and dying Gods, sacred meals shared with the God, initiations, virgin births, prophesies, eternal life, etc. etc. And Paganism had all those things first. So Christianity borrowed all those things, right? Two
problems.
TVPDSFU is a trick, a way for believers to get to the answer they're after. We can still be friends. |
| IntroductionBelievers in their own wordsReasons Vagueness as strategy Implications Who was first Do old religions copy from new religions? Similarities at issue |
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Isn't they're similar, the second one copied exactly POCM's reasoning for Christian borrowing? Well, I imagine POCM's reasoning is a little fancier, but basically yes. Yes it is. The point, of course, is that there is no symmetry to the facts. Christiantiy was unequivocally second -- Christianity developed hundreds of years after Pagan religions.
Lets
talk about those details. |
Who
was first? |
1.
Un-ignoring the evidence. |
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Oops. |
Here's
the fourth century church historian Eusebius, quoting the Pagan writer
Porphyry on the point. Unlike Professor Smith, Porphyry actually met
Origen. Porphyry gushed on and on about Origen's classical Greek—Pagan—education. >>
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(6.19.5) Then, again, he [Porphyry] said, "Let us take an example of this absurdity, from the very man whom I happened to meet when I was very young, and who was very celebrated, and is still celebrated by the writings that he has left; I mean Origen, whose glory is very great with the teachers of these doctrines. (6) For this man having been a hearer of Ammonius, who had made the greatest proficiency in philosophy among those of our day, as to knowledge, derived great benefit from his master, but with regard to a correct purpose of life, he pursued a course directly opposite. (7) For Ammonius, being a Christian, had been educated among Christians by his parents, and when he began to exercise his own understanding, and apply himself to philosophy, he immediately changed his views, and lived according to the laws. But Origen, as a Greek, being educated in Greek literature, declined to this barbarian impudence. To which, also, betaking himself, he both consigned himself and his attainments in learning, living like a Christian, and swerving from the laws; but in regard to his opinions, both of things and the Deity, acting the Greek, and intermingling Greek literature with these foreign fictions. (8) For he was always in company with Plato, and had the works also of Numenius and Cranius, of Apollophanes and Longinus, of Moderatus and Nicomachus, and others whose writings are valued, in his hands. He also read the works of Chaeremon, the stoic, and those of Cornutus. |
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In fact that Greek education, says Porphyry—did I mention he knew Origen?—was where Origen got his allegorical technique for understanding Christian scriptures.
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From these he derived the allegorical mode of interpretation usual in the mysteries of the Greeks, and applied it to the Jewish Scriptures." (9)
Such were the assertions made by Porphyry..." |
In the case of Adonis' resurrection the Christian who, according to the TVPDSFU theory, didn't understand Paganism was famous, even among Pagans, for his Pagan learning. Man, I wish I was getting paid by the comma for that sentence. When it came to things Pagan, Origen didn't know what he was talking about—in fact all those Christians recording Pagan beliefs didn't know what they were talking about. . . is a trick, a way to get to the answer anti-borrowing "scholars" are after. |
2.
Pagan
sacred secrets revealed only by Christians Till
the lights came on, the room was dark. Quick, turn the lights on. >> Now you see the sofa. Was the sofa there before? TVPDSFU says it wasn't. Here's what I mean. |
| Mystery religions' sacraments were sacred secrets. Secrets. Disclosing them to the uninitiated was illegal. Against the law. More than that, disclosing sacred secrets was profane—like masturbating in public. Actually, Diogenes the Cynic was famous for the touching himself in public thing, so: revealing sacred secrets was worse than masturbating in public. People didn't do it.
Mostly
we don't know what the mysteries' rituals and sacraments were. Where we
do know, the evidence is from Christian
sources. And, get this, all the Christian evidence dates from after the founding of Christianity! Till the lights came on, the room was dark. |
O Holy
rites of
a similar kind were in use also among the Epidaurians, and likewise another
sort of holy rites, whereof it is not
lawful to speak. |
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Till the lights came on, the room was dark. From which believers come up with the theory that maybe the centuries-old Pagan religions developed their sacraments only in the second century. Or the third century. Maybe the fourth. Whenever the first Christian description of them was recorded.
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3.
Many Christianities Maybe. Maybe not. I can't give you all the evidence here, (POCM talks about the great variety of early Christianities at Triumph > After Jesus: Scholarship) but basically early on there were lots of Christianities, and lots of Christian theologies. |
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For
example, here's the fourth century orthodox church historian Eusebius
describing the Ebionites, a Christian sect that believed: Obviously Paganism didn't borrow the idea of virgin born Gods from that version of Christianity. |
3.27 (1) The spirit
of wickedness, however, being unable to shake some in their love of Christ
and yet finding them susceptible of his impressions in other respects,
brought them over to his purposes. These were properly called
Ebionites
by the ancients, as those who cherished low
and mean opinions of Christ. (2) They
considered him a plain and common
man and justified only by his advances in virtue and
that he was born of the Virgin Mary by natural generation.
With them the observance of
the law was altogether necessary, as
if they could not be saved only by faith in Christ and a corresponding
life. |
Does that seem like a trivial point to you? It shouldn't. One of the most powerful and widespread kinds of early Christianity was gnosticism. The gnostics believed Jesus saved not by his dying and resurrection. The gnostics believed Jesus saved by the sacred wisdom he taught. The gnostic Gospel of Thomas never mentions Jesus saving death. If the Adonis-ists borrowed Adonis' resurrection, they didn't borrow it from the gnostics. As far as Pagan borrowing goes, the question is, did the Christianities the Pagans contacted in the years before Christians first mentioned the Pagan beliefs—Adonis' resurrection, etc.—did those Christianities have the beliefs borrowing scholars theorize the Pagans borrowed. I don't know. As far as I know the analysis has not been done. I do know there is good scholarship demonstrating that in many places around the ancient Mediterranean the first Christianities were not orthodox Christianities with all the legends and theologies we're used to. |
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There is, for example,
Dr. Bauer's: : Then in the 1930s this German guy named Walter Bauer decided to actually look at the evidence. Imagine! What he discovered was that pretty much everywhere he looked—Syria, Palestine, Egypt, etc.—the "heresies" weren't branches off any trunk, they were the original local Christianities. And they weren't small marginal sects, they were the main local Christianities. The evidence shows that all around the Mediterranean, outside Rome, the orthodox New Testament Roman Christianity was a secondary sect, a sect that became dominant only after the conversion of Constantine gave it the advantage of Roman swords. Wow. No wonder the big boys call this as a paradigm shattering book. Scholarly and technical, especially in the tedious first section of chapter one. Stick with it, because it gets fun and exciting. |
Orthodoxy
and Heresy in Earliest Christianity by Walter Bauer Out of Print, not available at Amazon. Try a used book seller. |
Did
the Christianities Pagans contacted early on have the theologies believers
theorize they did? I don't know. I do know the point is unclear and certainly
unproven. |
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It's
impossible to be specific about what Professor Smith's theory imagines happened
because he gives no evidence that he's thought through what happened, beyond
the simple fact that Origen 185- 254 AD, mentions Adonis' resurrection.
But basically, for Professor Smith's TVPDSFU theory to work, by, say, 220 AD, these things must have happened.:
On what schedule any of this happened, Dr. Smith's theory doesn't say. That #1 the resurrection sects were around is certainly true—Paul was part of one by 50 AD. When did the Christians become important enough to be known and copied (#3- 4)? We know from Pliny's letter to Trajan that in 117 AD Christianity was so remote and unknown that the emperor Trajan needed a background briefing just to get up to speed on the most basic facts about the new religion.
Because, of course, it didn't happen. Couldn't happened. There wasn't time. |
| #5
The early Christian apologists give the opposite timing:
them varmint daemons done stole from us—magically, backwards
in time. The apostle Paul wrote about Paganism in the first century AD, mostly just saying "Stay the hell away." By the the 100s AD, Christians were comparing their new faith with Pagan religion, proving to each other their faith was better. Paganism, they said, was silly, mythical, wrong, evil, or daemon sent. But it was never second. In all their aggressive, detailed attacks on Pagan religion, no early Christian apologist ever mentions one Pagan Christian similarity that happened because Christianity came first and Paganism borrowed. |
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| IntroductionBelievers in their own wordsReasons Vagueness as strategy Implications Who was first Do old religions copy from new religions? Similarities at issue |
On to the next subject. Remember we've been taking about how they're
similar, the second one copied applies to POCM's reasoning for Christian
borrowing? TVPDSFU uses that reasoning. So does POCM. The difference is
in the details. We've just looked at Who was really first. Now lets look
at:
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1.
Do old religions copy from new ones? But maybe in the ancient world water ran uphill. Maybe back then establishment religions did borrow from obscure upstart sects. Good news: this is a factual question with a factual answer. Scholarship does know a lot about how ancient religions spread, and it turns out even back in ancient times water did not flow uphill. POCM doesn't have room for all the details, which run to hundreds of pages, so let me refer you to a couple of the standard books.
Doctor of Divinity
Arthur Darby Nock's Conversion;
The Old and New in Religion From Alexander the Great to Augustine of Hippo
(1933, with several later reprints) is about how ancient religions
traveled from country to country and person to person.
Several ancient middle eastern religions had priests who whipped, cut, even castrated themselves. One of these, the worship of Cybele and Attis, moved to Rome in 204 BC. In Rome Cybele's priests continued to whip, cut and castrate themselves. But the priests of the old Roman Gods never took up the practice. Attis died. In Rome His faithful celebrated His death. But the old Roman Gods Jupiter and Minerva, etc. never added a death and resurrection story to their mythology. In the ancient world, as in ours, old establishment religions did not drop their stuff and pick up theologies from new religions. The pope doesn't pray from the Book of Mormon. That's another reason the TVPDSFU theory is silly. |
| 3. How is a new theology added to a complex old system? |
| 4. Compare /c adoption other eastern religions—adopted whole religion rather than parts of theology. |
| IntroductionBelievers in their own wordsReasons Vagueness as strategy Implications Who was first Do old religions copy from new religions? Similarities at issue |
| Why the mess? POCM 2007 | ![]() |
| IntroductionBelievers in their own wordsReasons Vagueness as strategy Implications Who was first Do old religions copy from new religions? Similarities at issue |
The
evidence
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Pagan mystery religions were more than a jumble of myths, they were religions of salvation that must have had a logical structure. What were the details of of their theologies? We don't know. What we do know is that mystery religions had a godman, initiations, sacred meals, rituals and prayers that combined to bring believers personal salvation. You gotta' figure that each bit fit with all the other bits to get the job done. The point, from a Pagan borrowing point of view, is how was a new sacrament like baptism fit into an already complete religion. TVPDSTU scholars never say.What the TVPDSFU theory imagines is that Paganism somehow borrowed Christianity's central sacraments and somehow dropped that one sacrament into an already working centuries-old theology. How that worked the TVPSDFU folks don't ever work out. For example, Reverend
Metzger imagines [with no evidence] that Mitras-ism borrowed it's
bull's blood baptism from Christianity. Is there any evidence of Mithraic
theology or adjusting to the new sacrament? Reverend Metzger offers none.
Did Mithraic inscriptions, or iconography or the progression of its sacred
orders change? Reverend Metzger offers no evidence they did. Somehow,
he imagines, the central sacrament of Christianity is dropped into another
religion and—besides the single inscription naming the sacrament—there is no record of any change. |
| Mithraic inscription: , Saved by the blood | |
| Taurobolium | |
| Some evidence about the rising part of dying and rising gods Adonis, Attis | |
Attis' HIlaria—Plutarch 2d century AD |
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